Get a What? A Job? 70% of Occupy Wall Streeters are Employed, Compared to 56% of Tea Partiers

Most people work 8 to 10 hours a day. This leaves 14 to16 hours to be at participate in an Occupation. Some are using weekends. Some are donating time and talent otherwise.

have you heard of day jobs? I support the 99% but then I'm retired so I don't have to make time to go I appreciate all those people that are making a stand not only for themselves but for you whether you realize it or not stand up for the 99% take a stand make a stand OCCUPY everything.

There are a lot of retired folks in the Tea Party. You know, the ones who worked for a living, saved their money and didn't ask the government to pay their childrens' student loans!

Would those be the ones holding signs saying "Keep your government hands off my medicare?"

Being that many of the OWS are recent college graduates, they might just work jobs that are outside of the nine to five, like waiting tables, retail and so on. Or they might work part-time in office jobs or in temporary jobs as they arise. In some of those jobs, weekdays are the "weekends." When I worked on Alcatraz, Tuesday-Wednesday was my weekend. Good and bad, BTW--hard to have a life with traditionally scheduled friends, but productive for errands as many fewer people were out.

Not everyone is a nine-to-five, weekends off worker.

When I worked on Alcatraz, Tuesday-Wednesday was my weekend.

There's a sentence you don't hear very often. :-)

One of the best jobs ever, Douglas :) I helped with the conception of the Evening Tours/Alcatraz at Night program and was fortunate to meet and develop friendships with former (reformed) inmates, guards, kids whose parents worked in the prison and who lived out there. One of the most moving, intense moments was listening to a discussion between the former Captain of the Guards (in his 90s at the time but still demanded to walk up the 1/4 mile, steep hill) and a man who had been an inmate under him.

And, I was able to spend the night out there a few times which was unreal and yes, spooky. Sitting outside the cellhouse at 2AM, watching traffic lights in the city on the hills change color--fantastic. As was playing "sardines" (reverse hide and seek--one person hides, when she's found, everyone hides with her until there's just one person searching) in the cellhouse.

I don't for a minute think the occupiers are deadbeats or fools. But I am flummoxed by their seeming disorganization. If all they are trying to do is tear down Wall Street, I hope they fail.

If, however, they are attempting to make the huge corporations that comprise Wall Street realize that those corps. are not human beings and don't deserve citizenship and the power to determine my future then I am all for them.

There is a distinction there that must be noted. Congress must recind a corporations right to lobby as though they were people. Lobbiests must be made to disappear. I don't care if they represent a union, a district, or a large multinational corporation.

I am a voter. I am an individual and I should be more important to government than any monied corporation or company. That august body must make it so or the fighting will continue and get worse.

Now the question is, can these noisy, dirty, street walkers and pedestrians ask the right questions and get the right answers? Right now, I don't think so.

They aren't all "noisy and dirty," Judi. And since when is protest clean and quiet? If it were, it wouldn't be a protest! A protest should be in people's faces and loud. It might cause disruption and inconvenience.

I have a feeling some whining about OWS crowds would have screamed about Rosa Parks making them late to work! I for one am thankful there are people who are willing to take a stand, to be uncomfortable, arrested, assaulted by police for the chance at a better country and I say KUDOS to them for that.

Mark twain's saying comes to mind here "People would rather die than think"

#2.9 Hi Jonsie, here in Denver they are dirty and noisy. Fact. Reason being; there are no facilities for bathing, Denver tore down the tent that was being used for wash ups and they were required to tone it down because they were noisy after ten which is the law in Denver. Many apartments and condos in the neighborhoods surrounding the park which the occupiers are using for their demonstrations.

Still, many protests are quiet and full and accomplish as much as does "in your face" confrontation. Ever hear of "passive aggressive". More success with honey as with vinegar? Once an assaulter is hauled off to jail his/her value becomes limited, in my view. First, because they are out of the picture by virtue of their arrest. Second, unless they are celebrities, no one pays them any mind.

In Denver they elected a dog to be the leader. That's right. How much credence can anyone give to that type of stupidity? No one has come forth as a leader to make demands or requests for redress of injury which is what they supposedly are claiming of Wall Street.

If they want government to relinquish its hold on business by rescinding the citizenship claim of multinationals and national corporations then they should do so. Only by stating what they need, will they get results.

I am all for the dissent. I am all for their idea of gathering. That is our right as citizens. But unless they request specifics of their government, nothing will get done. And all they become is dirty noisy citizens accomplishing nothing.

Sounds like you've drank long and deep at the FOX "News" trough, Judi.

#2.8

Maybe they need your participation!

In Denver they elected a dog to be the leader. That's right. How much credence can anyone give to that type of stupidity?

That figures. I have lived in several large cities, but Denver wins the title of worst place ever. I had a stroller stolen when I momentarily turned my back to carry my son up the stairs to my apartment. I once made someone an offer at a yard sale, only to be cursed at and told that if she didn't get her price, she would sooner set fire to her stuff. When a woman is beaten up by her husband, most of the time they arrest--the woman, who "broke the peace" because she screamed too loud. The place is scum. I'm not surprised they elected a dog. It's appropriate.

Oh, look, a personal attack from Mag. How typical of a rightie.

Reported.

The dog they elected is Shelby. His group, went to a hotel that was holding a Blogcon convention and tried to disrupt the convention. Didn't work. One guy was arrested for pushing a policeman. No one gave his name, didn't know it, didn't care. He is out of the picture, Jonsie. Another case of agression that brought nothing and sugar and honey were not present by the occupiers. What have they accomplished?

Blogcon bought dog bisquits for Shelby. He seemed the only sensible one there.

magnoliaave:

That is NOT what TJG said in that other thread and you know it.

SO 2.16 gets deleted yet TJG gets away with making a personal attack on anothers intelligence through the witty liberal faux news approach..how utterly progressive of you AL. What a croc!

judi fermanich This may answer some of your questions about the 99% movement:

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

1. Elimination of the Corporate State. The merger of the political system of Republican Democracy with the economic system of Capitalism has resulted in the establishment of a Corporate government of, by and for the benefit of corporations. Therefore, the American People demand an immediate ban on all private contributions of any thing of value, to all politicians in or running for federal office. This ban shall extend to all individuals, corporations, "political action committees," "super political action committees," lobbyists, unions and all other private sources of money or any thing of value. Private fundings of campaigns shall be replaced by the fair, equal and total public financing of all federal political campaigns. We, the American People, categorically REJECT the concepts that corporations are persons or that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest people and corporations would have a voice in our society. The complete elimination of private contributions must be enacted by law orConstitutional amendment because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who indirectly and directly spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions when they attain office and ensure their reelection year after year. Our elected representatives spend far too much of their time fundraising for the next election rather than doing the People's business and labor under conflicts of interest that make it impossible for them to act in the best interest of the American People. The current system's propagation of legalized bribery and perpetual conflicts of interests has reduced our once great Republican Democracy to a greed driven corporatocracyrun by boardroom oligarchs who represent .05 to 1% of the population but own 38% of the wealth and whose incomes have increased 275% since 1979 while most other salaries have remained virtually flat or declined.

2. Abrogation of the "Citizens United" Case. The immediate abrogation, even if it requires a Constitutional Amendment, of the outrageous and anti-democratic holding in the "Citizens United" case proclaimed by the United States Supreme Court in 2010. This heinous decision equates the payment of money to politicians by corporations, wealthy individuals and unions with the exercise of protected free speech. We, the American People, demand that this institutional bribery and corruption never again be deemed protected free speech.

3. Elimination of All Private Benefits and "Perks" to Politicians. Prohibiting all federal public employees, officers, officials or their immediate family members from ever being employed by any corporation, individual or business that the official specifically regulated while in office; nor may any public employee, officer, official or their immediate family members own or hold any stock or shares in any corporation the official specifically regulated while in office until a full 5 years after their term is completed; a complete lifetime ban on the acceptance of all gifts, services, money or thing of value, directly or indirectly, by any elected or appointed federal official or their immediate family members, from any person, corporation, union or other entity that the public official was charged to specifically regulate while in office. The term "specifically regulate" shall mean service on a committee or sub-committee or service within any agency or department of the federal government responsible for the regulation of the person, union, corporation or entity seeking to confer a benefit. In sum, elected politicians and public employees in regulatory roles may only collect their salary, generous healthcare benefits and pension. Any person, including corporate employees, found guilty and convicted of violating these new ethics rules in a court of law by proof beyond a reasonable doubt, shall be sentenced to a term of mandatory imprisonment of no less than one year and not more than ten years.

4. Term Limits. Members of the United States House of Representatives shall be limited to serving no more than four two-year terms in their lifetime. Members of the United States Senate shall be limited to serving no more than two six-year terms in their lifetime. The two-term limit for President shall remain unchanged. Serving as a member of Congress or as the President of the United States is one of the highest honors and privileges our culture can bestow. These positions of prominence in our society should be sought to serve one's country and not provide a lifetime career designed to selfishly increase personal wealth and accumulate power for the sake of vanity and hubris.

5. A Fair Tax Code. A complete reformation of the United States Tax Code to require ALL citizens and corporations to pay a fair share of a progressive, graduated income tax by eliminating loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and unfair deductions, subsidies and ending all other methods of evading taxes. The current system of taxation unjustly favors the wealthiest Americans, many of whom pay fewer taxes to the United States Treasury than citizens who earn much less and pay a much higher percentage of their incomes in taxes. Any corporation that does business in the United States and generates income from that business shall be fully taxed on that income regardless of corporate domicile or they will be barred from earning their profits in the United States so that companies that pay their taxes can take that market share.

6. Healthcare for All. Medicare for all or adoption of a single-payer healthcare system. TheMedicaid program will be eliminated.

7. Protection of the Planet. New comprehensive regulations to give the Environmental Protection Agency expanded powers to shut down corporations, businesses or any entities that intentionally or recklessly damage the environment, and to criminally prosecute individuals who intentionally or recklessly damage the environment. We also demand the immediate adoption of the most recent international protocols, including the "Washington Declaration" to cap carbon emissions and implement new and existing programs to transition away from fossil fuels to reusable or carbon neutral sources of energy.

8. Debt Reduction. Adoption of an immediate plan to reduce the national debt to a sustainable percentage of GDP by 2020. Reduction of the national debt to be achieved by BOTH fair progressive taxation and cuts in spending to corporations engaged in perpetual war for profit, the "healthcare" industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the communications industry, the oil and gas industry, and all other sectors that currently use the federal budget as their private income stream. We agree that spending cuts are necessary but those cuts must be made to facilitate what is best for the People of the United States of America, not multinational and domestic corporations who currently have a stranglehold on all politicians in both parties.

9. Jobs for All Americans. Passage of a comprehensive job and job-training act like theAmerican Jobs Act to employ our citizens in jobs that are available with specialized training and by putting People to work now by repairing America's crumbling infrastructure. We also recommend the establishment of an online international job exchange to match employers with skilled workers or employers willing to train workers in 21st century skills. In conjunction with a new jobs act, reinstitution of the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps and similar emergency governmental agencies tasked with creating new public works projects to provide jobs to the 46 million People living in poverty, the 9.1% unemployed and 10% underemployed.

10. Student Loan Forgiveness. Implementation of a student loan debt relief forgiveness program. Our students are $1 trillion in debt from education loans alone with few employment prospects due to a financial collapse directly caused by the unbridled and unregulated greed of Wall Street. Interest on these debts should be reduced and deferred for periods of unemployment and the principal on these loans forgiven over time by phasing in a graduated corporate tax surcharge. This surcharge will also act as reparations for Wall Street's intentional and reckless conduct leading to widespread unemployment, the economic collapse in 2007-2008, the multi-billion dollar bailout of Wall Street, current worldwide recession and turmoil in international markets. The tax code will also be amended so that employers will receive astudent loan repayment tax deduction for paying off the loans of their employees.

11. Immigration Reform and Improved Border Security. Immediate passage of the Dream Actand comprehensive immigration and border security reform including offering visas, lawful permanent resident status and citizenship to the world’s brightest People to stay and work in our industries and schools after they obtain their education and training in the United States.

12. Ending of Perpetual War for Profit. Recalling all military personnel at all non-essential bases and refocusing national defense goals to address threats posed by the geopolitics of the 21st century, including terrorism and limiting the large scale deployment of military forces to instances where Congressional approval has been granted to counter the Military Industrial Complex's goal of perpetual war for profit. The annual savings created by updating our military posture will be applied to the social programs outlined herein to improve the quality of life for human beings rather than assisting corporations to make ever-increasing profits distributed to the top 1% of wealth owners.

13. Reforming Public Education. Mandating new educational goals to train the American public to perform jobs in a 21st century economy, particularly in the areas of technology and green energy, taking into consideration the redundancy caused by technology and the inexpensivecost of labor in China, India and other developing countries. Eliminating tenure in favor of merit performance and paying our teachers a competitive salary commensurate with the salaries of employees in the private sector with similar skills because without highly-skilled teachers, there will never be a highly-skilled workforce and the United States will fall further and further behind its competitors.

14. End Outsourcing. Subject to the elimination of corporate tax loopholes and exploited exemptions and deductions stated above, offering tax incentives to businesses to remain in the United States and hire our citizens rather than outsource jobs. An "outsourcing tax" should be introduced to discourage businesses from sending jobs overseas. Providing tax breaks to companies that invest in reconstructing the manufacturing capacity of the United States so that we again make everyday products in the United States rather than importing them from countries like China and India. Corporations must be incentivized to make slightly less profit by hiring American workers rather than maximizing every penny of profit to the detriment of society.

15. End Currency Manipulation. Implementing immediate legislation (see e.g. H.R. 639) to encourage China (which undervalues its currency by an estimated 25% to 40%) and our other trading partners to end currency manipulation and reduce the trade deficit.

16. Banking and Securities Reform. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act and increased regulation of Wall Street and the financial industry by the SEC, FINRA, the Justice Department and the other financial regulators. The immediate commencement of Justice Department criminal investigations into the Securities and Banking industry practices that led to the collapse of markets, $700 billion bank bail-out ("T.A.R.P.") and financial firm failures in 2007-2008. Introduction of a small financial transaction fee to collect a "sales tax" on each and every stock trade and all other forms of financial transactions. Uniform regulations limiting what banks may charge consumers for ATM fees, the use of debit cards and other miscellaneous "fees." Ending the $4 billion a year "hedge fund loophole" which permits certain individuals engaged in financial transactions to evade graduated income tax rates by treating their income as capital gains which are taxed at a much lower tax rate (approximately 15%).

17. Foreclosure Moratorium. Adoption of a plan similar to President Clinton’s proposal to end the mortgage crisis. The privately owned Federal Reserve Bank shall not continue to lower interest rates for loans to banks that are refusing to loan to small businesses and consumers, but instead shall buy all underwater or foreclosed mortgages. It will refinance these debts at an interest rate of 1% or less because that is the interest rate it charges the banks, which hoard the cash rather than loan it to the People and small businesses. These debts will be managed by the newly established Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and an independent foreclosure task force appointed and overseen by Congress and the Executive Branch to determine, on a case-by-case basis, whether foreclosure proceedings should continue based on the circumstances of each homeowner and the propriety of the financial institution's conduct when originating the loan.

18. Ending the Fed. The immediate formation of a non-partisan commission, overseen by Congress, to audit and investigate the economic risks and possibility of eliminating the privately-owned Federal Reserve Bank and transferring its functions to the United States Treasury Department.

19. Abolish the Electoral College, Comprehensive Campaign Finance and Election Reform. Abolishing the Electoral College in favor of the Popular Vote in presidential elections. Subject to the above ban on all private money and gifts in politics: enactment of additional campaign finance reform requiring new FCC regulations granting free air time to all candidates; totalpublic campaign financing to all candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to get on the ballot and participate in the primaries and/or electoral process; implementation of nationwide uniform election rules applied to all voting districts requiring equal access to third parties to appear on ballots; shortening the campaign season to three months; allowing voting on weekends and holidays; issuance of free voter registration cards to all citizens who are eligible to vote so that they cannot be turned away at a polling stationbecause they do not have a driver's license or other form of identification; and expanding the option of mail-in ballots and verifiable internet voting.

20. Ending the War in Afghanistan. An immediate withdrawal of all combat troops from Afghanistan and a substantial increase in the amount of funding for veteran job training and placement. New programs dedicated to the treatment of the emotional and physical injuries sustained by veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan. Our veterans are committing suicide at anunprecedented rate of one person every 80 minutes and we must help now.

21. Repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act ("DOMA"). Immediate passage of Senate bill, S. 598, and House bill, H.R. 1116, to repeal the Defense Of Marriage Act because all human beings have the right to love and marry another human being regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

brian,

and those 21 points are an indication that a lot of people don't really know how or why things work the way they do (well not all of them, but a lot of them).

And what does point 21 have to do with the issues of companies owning government. Quite frankly that list is just a hodgepodge of bitch points without any cohesion. If anything, at least the tea party has a focussed message, as vile as that message is.

I never said that it was perfect, or that I support everything. I was just being a messenger, sharing info and letting someone/ everyone take what they want from it. Had no Spin on it from me.

Issue 21 has nothing to do with Corporations, but it does touch on the influences that the church has on Gov't with their money as well (Prop 8 Cali was backed by the church with church money). Removing all money from all entities and leaving public financing can help us have honest debates about such issues and less paid for propaganda/spin.

You act as if our founding fathers had a focussed cohesion message, as opposed to take the best ideas that people could agree on to move things forward. Once you get the balls in motion you can always improve later like ending slavery, women's right to vote, civil rights. They ensured changes could be made that would make America flexible and as she grew and times changed.

I am not acting anything. Actually I don't think that OWS has a specific message other than 'the status quo is no longer acceptable'. Putting it in point form implies an organization which to me is implying that it is a special interest group with a specific agenda. It isn't, and that is its strength in my mind. It isn't the tea party with a message of hatred and self serving. It is a large number of people that are out to say, hey, we can't go on this way.

The more people that can get out and express that, the better chance it has of success. To make it as a set of points is going to fragment the protests into groups and separate them, which is pretty much what I believe the people that are demanding the answer to 'what do you stand for' are expecting.

Who knows?

The above ''statistics'' were complied by a leftwinged partisan who has no idea of what he is talking about,and like most ''lies, damned lies, and statistics'' are simply tossed them out there for consumption.

Even a better source than he, namely the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which does not separate citizens into neat groups of ''TP vs OWS'', finds that Red states including Texas, Utah, and South Dakota, perform better as jobs engines than do Blue states including California, Michigan, and Oregon. Further, these do not have the problems inherent with areas of housing foreclosure that these and other states possess. Ironically, the ''college smart'' of a MBA cannot even buy a job sorting CPA paperwork in Manhattan, while the ''high-school/tech dumb'' of an Alabama redneck can fetch a high-paying career in HVAC or oil services.[ More odd, is the fact that such who ''support'' the OWS in their alleged ''support'' of the working or middle class in turn, find the time to disparage these as ignorant hicks, which is no way to win friends and influence people, except within the vaccum of a like-minded world].

So much for the ''tolerance'' these peddle.

The BLS thus observes that while ''college'' careers are faltering [with the vivid exception of medical and government sector work in DC ], construction services are gaining, which are the province of the allegedly ''uneducated'', who like to joke that, being a gun-toting journeyman with a truck garden and a hound is not such a bad life after all, observing of their more educated northern peers, that '' these are the ones who are mummies in the car stuck in dead traffic months after the big one hits and we are the the ones walking past them with backpacks full of canned food, shotguns and CB radios run off of generators they would have been too dumb to fix anyway even if they had lived past the first city exit''.

Thus there are benefits to being educated in more things than scraps of paper or dogmatic nonsense being peddled by profs wearing dork-knobs and birkenstocks. As the ''uneducated'' would view it, at least. No ''Angies List'' for them.

Pass to the OWS, and in the ''you just can't make this up''Dept;, the same Oakland OWS which protested and defaced WELLS FARGO banks last week is the same OWS which ...

..dropped 20 grand in funds into said WELLS FARGO two days ago due to ''safekeeping'' concerns...

CBS NEWS [KPIX San Francisco] Nov.09,2011: ''Occupy Oakland Protesters Deposit Funds At Wells Fargo After Bank Attacks''.

orly

then I suggest that you move to the great state of texas so that you can get one of those fine minimum wage jobs that are being created there. Enjoy.

Brian #2.25 One thing you said that I believe must be untrue is the input of church money into Proposition 8 in California. Any organized religion that would do that, would lose their status as a non profit religious organization. Period. The government would not allow that to go unchallanged.

We are still a two party nation. I bet if you really checked, you would find the same type of collusion on the part of Democrats. Some person on the vine, a while back noted that there were more millionaire Dems than were Republicans. He showed data but I can never remember details of what I have read. It is as likely a scenerio as the one you presented, if you looked.

One thing you said that I believe must be untrue is the input of church money into Proposition 8 in California.

It is true. The Mormon Church paid for the majority of Prop. 8 ads.

Hey 3rdtime. "Some are donating time and talent otherwise"

So this is a talent show? Thanks for clearing that up.

Even a better source than he, namely the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which does not separate citizens into neat groups of ''TP vs OWS'', finds that Red states including Texas, Utah, and South Dakota, perform better as jobs engines than do Blue states including California, Michigan, and Oregon. Further, these do not have the problems inherent with areas of housing foreclosure that these and other states possess.

And smart people are up on those things and are therefore willing to relocate when necessary. (Today it's easier than ever before to do this research thanks to the Internet, which is available for free at every public library. The last time I relocated was in the early '90s. Trust me, figuring out where to move was much harder in those days, but I still did it.) Forget the politics of the thing if you have to support yourself, let alone a family. Just go to wear the jobs are and stop whining! There are liberals in Texas and conservatives in California, so wherever you go you will be able to find like-minded people to hang around with. Not that I ever picked my own friends on the basis of mere politics.

As for the argument that you may only be able to get an entry level, low paying job when you first move, well of course, but you probably won't stay at that level for long.

Who is donating the bongo drums and hula hoops? Maybe some nice liberal will offer to pay off those pesky student loans, since the people who borrowed the money in the first place dont want to.

#2.30 What you indicate cannot be true because the federal courts would be all over the Mormons if it were true. That is the standard which separates church and state. There are no such court proceedings anywhere which would indicate that the Mormons broke federal law in this matter.
You can say it is true as often as you like, but it isn't.

Yeah, Judi... That's the best measuring stick I can think of, too. If someone hasn't been charged with a crime, no crime was committed. Brilliant.

Kearney, when it comes to church and state and when it was supposedly so blatant, charges would have been filed. The feds are not stupid when it comes to defanging their opposition. Not that stupid, anyway.

The mormon church was actually pretty open about their involvement in the Proposition 8 campaign. It wasn't a secret, and the church was proud of it.

There's a "mega-church" near here (in KC) that is very active politically. I know, because my stepson used to attend it. (He got better.) Nothing was ever done and nothing has been done. It doesn't mean they haven't breached that divide. Just that no one has chosen to instigate a lengthy and costly investigation.

Churches are allowed to be politically active, but they DO endanger their tax free status if they engage in partisan politics or endorse particular candidates. No one should object. Wasn't MLK a PREACHER?

Oom

Yeah but proposition 8 wasn't a typical political battle, it wasn't about electing candidates. That makes it a different matter.

But that makes it even more okay that churches would be involved. Again, you don't lose your freedom of speech rights just because you are a church, but you might very properly lose your tax exemption.

There is a growing number of churches that should not be tax exempt. Visit several churches in the south and the odds are you will leave depressed not spiritually enlightened. These churches also use techniques (pizza parties) to bring in young people after school and on Saturday to push their view and agenda.

If a church is helping citizens register to vote - that is a wonderful service to a community. If they are telling their members who to vote for and what laws and amendments to support, they should pay taxes. A growing number of Americans would love to see churches investigated and tax laws enforced. Especially now that in 2010 some states do not allow teachers to educate students about our election process, voting or even how to register to vote.

genevieveva,

The problem is that it is extremely difficult to match the burden of proof to get the IRS to revoke their tax exempt status for these reasons. Now if they just revoked the tax exempt status for all NGO's, then that may be a solution.

oh, perhaps I might even agree that more churches should pay tax, but so what? I live in a place where some of the tax free "nonprofits" are ruining our town and maybe nobody should be tax free, be they church or whatever.

It may be that members of the church were and are active politically. And it may be that they promoted the failure of the bill in question. I would not doubt that for a minute. But members of any religion are not priests, ministers and advisors. They are members and I concede that could be the case here. But I stand by my belief that the church, as an entity, did not.

What?

If the "member of the church" is the one signing the @!$%#ing checks, then those "members" represent the church in a financial manner (HINT: taxes are in the "finance" dept.)

If a check shows up to pay for an ad supporting a certain horse in a political race, and at the top of the check it says "The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints" (OR WHATEVER),

It doesn't matter if the ones that signed it are preachers or priests, or monks, or accountants, or CFOs, or nuns, or janitors It's FROM THE CHURCH.

judi fermanich: Actually, the LDS church has reported spending approximately $180,000 in support of Prop 8.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/top-officials-w.html

Some of that money went to paying the salaries of church members that were working to get Prop 8 passed, some of that money was spent on airline tickets used by various people for the specific reason of trying to get Prop. 8 passed.

Other reports since then have actually estimated the amount paid by the church (not by members) is even higher than the church admits to having spent.

Again, members of churches have the exact same right as everybody else to have political causes, and so do churches themselves. Which is a good thing becasue in the past churches have supported many progressive causes such as abolition itself.

Churches do not have that right, unless they want to pay taxes.

I'm personally for nobody at all being tax exempt. Maybe you have to be from Pittsburgh and watch what the alleged "non profit" insurance companies are doing to health care here, but they all suck and they are "nonprofit" like Donald Trump is. Tax em all.

Oom, My post was not about whether the LDS church had the right to do this or not. Judi claimed that the LDS church, as a church, didn't donate to get prop 8 passed in California. The church admits to having done so - they actually paid for the salary of some people (who happened to be LDS church members) to work for the campaign to pass prop 8.

The church acknowledges that it spent approximately 180,000; however, other reports indicate that they actually spent more. There are even stories that they actively encouraged members (not living in California) to donate to support Prop 8 (and similar things in Arizona). My aunt who is LDS in Utah, said that several people high up within the church explicitly told members in Utah that they were suppose to donate to this cause, and even, in a round about way, implied that their position within the church would be in jeopardy if they didn't donate to the campaign for prop 8. As a result, they raised over $20 million for this cause. While that is entirely legal, it isn't exactly ethical to basically tell the people donate for else.

And right now, they are fighting to keep the pro-8 donors' names hidden. If everything was aboveboard, why the desire to remain anonymous?

The other thing I find offensive is the carpet-bagging aspect of it. They donated heavily to a cause in another state. It wasn't their business.

The church directly and INDIRECTLY spent millions. 180K is pocket change.

They are not too secretive about it either.

TJG

As far as anonymous, freedom of speech also requires that you take responsibility for what you say, and so anonymity should not be guaranteed. What they are basically saying there is, yeah we can say whatever hateful crap we want, but should not have to answer to it.

Jonathan, how is back surgery recovery coming along?

I think a ruling on the anonymity of the donors is due soon. I watch the Prop. 8 goings on closely, one of the Plantiffs (Paul Katami) is a college friend and a great guy :)

the second procedure so far so good (thank you canadian health care hahahah; yeah I had to put that jab in lol).

I am unsure as to whether I should sue the first doctor for malpractice, as he actually did more damage than good. I don't really need the money, but ...

It will be a few months before I am up and about and going through physio, but hopefully I won't need disc replacement, at least for a few years.

Good news, Jonathan. Lawsuits are personal, I never comment. The money is only a consolation, if he is a bad surgeon, he needs to be sued.

The church directly and INDIRECTLY spent millions. 180K is pocket change.

Agreed.

I am unsure as to whether I should sue the first doctor for malpractice, as he actually did more damage than good. I don't really need the money, but ...

Unfortunately, back surgery can be like that. It is said, for most back surgery procedures, that 1/3 of pts will get better, 1/3 will see no change in their symptoms, and 1/3 will get worse.

If the first doctor followed standard of care, you probably won't get much out of a malpractice lawsuit. That said, if the first surgeon really did mess up - then, whether you need the money or not, is irrelevant. Yeah, I don't like to see unwarranted malpractice lawsuits - but, there are times when they are justified.

well he is saying that I should have told him that I have scoliosis (curvature of the spine which is mild, but still there). I am like, what? you didn't fracking look at the X-Ray of my spine (and it is in my records which were sent to him by my doctor in canada when I was there).

He ended up fixing the problem but creating another instability that was complicated by the scoliosis.

well he is saying that I should have told him that I have scoliosis (curvature of the spine which is mild, but still there). I am like, what? you didn't fracking look at the X-Ray of my spine (and it is in my records which were sent to him by my doctor in canada when I was there).

Sounds like an idiot doctor to me. He has the records - they indicate the scoliosis; he has the x-rays, he can do a quick measurement on the x-rays to see if there is scoliosis. It's his responsibility to be sure the surgery he had planned was the right surgery for you - after all - he is the doctor.

Also, regardless of what's in the records, or on the x-ray, if scoliosis is a potential complicating factor for the surgery you had - it was HIS obligation to ask you if you ever had scoliosis.

it's a birth defect, so you are born with it, and you live your life with it. As far as telling, my records from my doctor in Canada indicate the exact nature of the scoliosis and the extent of the problem. My doctor in Canada had been dealing with the problem for close to a decade and he had extremely good records about my problem (it is a degenerative condition that originated from an accident I was in when I was in the service.

The issue with it is that what he did was fine, as long as I didn't start standing because the curvature in my spine was going to put pressure on the discs in different ways and he just created another pressure point. I got the feeling that he was more of an assembly line doctor, and I have a jaguar kind of problem (very high maintenance).

As far as the mention of it, he knew I had it because he did discuss it with me, there is just no proof of that or any notes, so it is he said, he said.

Some scoliosis is functional, some is structural. Some is congenital, some isn't. But, none of that matters. It's his job to know the complicating factors for the type of surgery he was going to perform, not yours. If scoliosis is a potential complicating factor for the type of surgery he was going to perform, he should've discussed it with you and altered the treatment plan to deal with your particular case.

Sounds like not considering how your scoliosis would affect the outcome of the surgery is failure to perform standard of care for your particular case.

Regardless - I'm glad you've found a doctor that is actually treating your issue the way it needs to be treated.

Also, since there are no notes of him discussing your scoliosis in the file - that could actually benefit you in deciding to sue or not. Here's way - if he didn't document it, then it's like he didn't do it. So, if discussing and dealing with your scoliosis is standard of care when it comes to planning the type of surgery you had, then because he didn't document it, it's as if he never had the conversation with you. Now, if your scoliosis is well documented (as it sounds like it is), then there is no reason for him to have NOT discussed it with you. You, being honest, would say that he did discuss it with you - however, the outcome of your surgery (combined with the "you should've told me you had scoliosis), says he didn't actually come up with a treatment plan for your condition as a whole (both the thing you were there for surgery for AND the scoliosis - both needed to be addressed in your case, it sounds like).

Anyway, if the doctor did, in fact, screw up, then that's what malpractice lawsuits and insurance are for. Best of luck to you.

well the money isn't an issue, that is my personal dilemma. If the only thing that I am going to get out of it is a few hundred thousand dollars in settlement, then there is just no point. It won't change his behaviour, and I don't need the money (if I were to retire today, I could give away 90% of my money and still be comfortable for the rest of my life, and no, that isn't to gloat, but just to give an indication of what any settlement could render). So the only goal would be to try and correct the behaviour or remove it from the system, and what I was told is that nothing will happen to his medical license.

At that point, I just ask my self, is it worth the effort? (me coming from Canada has also instilled in me a much less litigious attitude as well)

The information has been recorded in the respective medical association files, so if it happens again, my experience can be used as a pattern of malpractice.

Yeah, I get that. If it wouldn't change his behavior and the way he practices medicine, then is it really worth it? Probably not.

I do think the information being recorded so that if it happens again it would help establish a pattern is a good thing. It might actually help someone someday that actually needs the money that would come from a malpractice suit.

And damn it, I don't have my friends list anymore (this is a new ID as I got completely and utterly near violet frustrated with some of the crap on here and deleted my other one) and now this thing I seeded doesn't show up on anyones trackers. :(( Damn it.

See, this is proof that short sighted 'solutions' don't really solve any problems hahahahaha

As for money, if I got anything, my cat would just demand that I get him more beds for him to sleep in. (or my ex would demand more money for her to use as firestarter in her fireplace).

I think term limits are wrong. It will make it easier to buy people off. Why? Evidence to show that it happens. The presidents since FDR all know that this is a 8 year job. They know that after the 8 years they need to live in the general populace. What will they do with all that power? Can you blame them? They will try to use there position to make themselves better off . If you let the president stay as long as the people vote for him, then its in his/her interest to do there best to keep there position.

More evidence? Just look at yourself. If you have a job that you know is ending in eight years. You have to plan to find some other way to survive and use your time. Thats the same thing with all these people. They are going to be pressured to plan for short term and not long term.

That policing of the gifts and other things will be significantly more difficult with term limits. Why because there will be more people to police. I believe that there should be no term limits on the president or the congress people. I off course I believe that we should have elections as we have now.

Why? These people get expertise in the political game and also learn about the law. If you put in these limits these people have to make a living outside the government. Then they will be bought and paid for. IF they do a good job they are re-elected. That is how it should be. We would never see GWB in government if Clinton had been left in office.

I just think term limits are totally wrong. Its just like yourself. You study to become a lawyer and they say. Hey, you can only be a lawyer for 8 years. Then your on your own. It does not work.

It takes years to become a politican because the problems are complex and you need to be friend your constituents. If there are term limits. The congress person will be changing like you change your underwear. You won't know him or her. They wont know you.

They will just do whatever deal that is best for them. The rich elite know this. This term limits will destroy america like it has destroyed the presidency.

Actually my lawyer wished he could have retired after 8 years, he is pretty much fed up with it and really has only kept a small group of clients in his books, the ones that don't piss him off.

WOW! You guys have given me eye opening information regarding churches and funding and the separation of church and state. I will have to bow to your greater wisdom until I can find out more on my own. Thank you, all for sharing.

OWS demands include the following: a “guaranteed living wage income regardless
of employment”; a $20-per-hour minimum wage; an end to “the fossil fuel
economy”; “open borders” so “anyone can travel anywhere to work and live”; $1
trillion in public expenditures for infrastructure; another $1 trillion for
“ecological restoration”; “free college education” for all; the forgiveness of
“all debt on the entire planet, period”; and the abolition of credit agencies.

Yep they're not asking for anything much are they and this doesnt represent 99 percent

$1 trillion in public expenditures for infrastructure;

How is that outrageous when we have no problem spending it on Bush's pointless war?

“free college education”

Yeah, who ever heard of that? Oh wait...

• Argentina
• Brazil
• Denmark
• Finland
• Greece
• Norway
• Scotland
• Sweden

They all offer free post-secondary education.

another $1 trillion for “ecological restoration”

Again, I refer you to what we spend on pointless wars.

OK Ms grass roots perhaps you can do what so many have failed to. Tell us exactly what you people want? I'm serious, a movement with no cause, its time OWS put up or shut up. Ive been to New York and what Ive seen is a disgrace. Violence among you is growing,and the encampments stink. To be quite honest the whole movement has the stench of socialism. So really its getting old, either say something or move on.

Great seed, AL.

OWS demands include the following:

Was that list what FOX news is giving out or was that just pulled straight out of a hat (or something)?

I've never heard any of those things. Utter tripe.

To be quite honest the whole movement has the stench of socialism.

Oh, heavens! And me without a fainting couch!

But yet no answers.

Socialism? Not that government under which countries have much higher happiness indices and vacation time and better quality of life than us! NOOOOO!

Shhhh... shhhhh.

The "S" word has been uttered. We liberals are supposed to stand silently now, staring at our feet in embarrassment and perhaps mumble an apology.

But yet you live in the USA , Im asking a simple question which no one can seem to give an answer to. What do these people want? Lot of wanna be comedians replying but no serious answers.

Well, yes, I was born here. But I don't think our country perfect and I can see the good in other countries as well. Those who live in more socialist countries are happier, have more free time, better healthcare, are better educated, more relaxed, to name a few. And they seem pretty free to me. OK, maybe they can't have 1000 guns.

But I'll take healthcare and vacation time and not worrying about the bills if laid off over owning a gun.

Care to name a few of those Country's? So is this the answer, they want a socialist Country?

OWS

Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Norway. Healthier than us, happier than us, an all over better quality of life than what we have.

Thanks for that Kearney you have given me a new outlook. They should all be locked away somewhere. Ridiculous ,unrealistic and just down right stupid,did you read some of that crap,. You guys have a good time and we you come back to reality maybe we can figure out a way to make things work. You re a sad bunch of people.

JG maybe you need to take a closer look at some of those countrys and see what liberal immigration is doing to them.

#3.10 and the rest of you. Here is a definition of socialism for you. Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. So if you like that, don't start a business or bother going to business school to learn how to be independent because in a socialistic society, you don't get to do that.

I think I resent that feature most of all.

Bear in mind that was UNOFFICIAL posted by someone on their forum.

Get used to the idea of this "sad bunch of people" changing your world.

. So if you like that, don't start a business or bother going to business school to learn how to be independent because in a socialistic society, you don't get to do that.

So in the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and so on, there are no independent businesses? None?

LOL!

So in the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and so on, there are no independent businesses? None?

LOL!

Do you want to break the bad news to them or should I?

I'm chatting with a friend in the Netherlands on Facebook, I'll be gentle :) Be listening, you might hear the laughter from where you sit.

Also amusing: the majority I know with business degrees (marketing, management, accounting) and MBAs work in corporations, not owning their own businesses. Hardly independent.

anyone that thinks that they need an MBA to run a small business (or even a business degree) is smoking something that really ought to land them in prison.

Sweden is the best of these countries, but even their policies have been trending toward the right for over a decade.

The occupiers aren't socialists. They are demonstraters. It is their right to "peaceful demonstration". It is in our Constitution. You guys remember that, right. What would be wrong is if they sought to overthrow the government, as opposed to making changes within the system.

Most are well meaning and hard working. But they need some points of order to accomplish anything or they will become a mob and that would defeat their purpose, don't you think?

Yeah, who ever heard of that? Oh wait...

• Argentina
• Brazil
• Denmark
• Finland
• Greece
• Norway
• Scotland
• Sweden

They all offer free post-secondary education.

And all those countries send a tiny fraction of students to higher education in comparision to us. Also, we do send the poor to college. My son's Pell Grant has paid 100% of his tuition so far.

Actually, the Netherlands has what I would call a modified monarchy. The king is titular head but their form of government is more English in a way. And their liberal party is more like our conservatives. They have layers of government much in the way we do, but their government has been around since the 1800's. And they believe in free enterprise. They are not socialist. Business is encouraged to come to invest and small companies are encouraged.

So much for the socialism theory espoused by Jones Girl. It would be a great place to live if you had gumption. Lazy people need not apply.

I think the liberal left could learn a lot from these "socialist" countries. Sweden has been swinging toward pro business for some time now. It's also interesting that their middle class pays a much higher percentage of the tax burden there than the rich do. If we want to truly be more like them we would have to raise taxes on the middle class by a large margin they did not get where they are by simply taxing the rich more.

OomYaaqub:

And all those countries send a tiny fraction of students to higher education in comparision to us.

I don't know where you get that statistic, but it's dead wrong. Here are the percentages of enrollment in tertiary educational programs in those countries:

Finland: 89.5%
Sweden: 83.73%
United States: 82.44%
Norway: 80.47%
Greece: 79.38%
Denmark: 73.88%
Argentina: 63.86%
Scotland: (not listed, because it's part of the United Kingdom. UK's percentage is 60.13%)
Brazil: 22.28%

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_sch_enr_ter_gro-education-school-enrollment-tertiary-gross

A tiny fraction of students? Perhaps—most of those countries have a far lower population than the U.S.

But in percentage terms, Finland and Sweden beat the U.S., and all the others except Brazil have a fraction of at least 4/5—hardly what I'd call "a tiny fraction"—of what the U.S. does who are enrolled in or have completed post-secondary education.

Commonsenseinchange:

I think the conservative right could learn a lot from those "socialist" countries.

Sweden has been leaning toward "pro-business"? They still haven't gotten anywhere near allowing business to exploit the environment, consumers and labor to the extent the U.S. does. And their population's standard of living is general satisfaction (indexed by the OECD) is higher than that of the U.S.:

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/

My son's Pell Grant has paid 100% of his tuition so far.

How many credit hours is your son taking? The reason I ask, is when I was in undergrad (I graduated in 2009), I went to a University that had the least expensive tuition in my state (and amongst the least expensive in the country), I qualified for a maximum Pell Grant my first year (after that I was on 100% academic scholarships), and it was about $3000/year LESS than necessary to cover my tuition. Of course, I took 20+ credit hours a semester. Those that took 12 credit hours could get their tuition covered by a pell grant - of course, they were going to be in school a lot longer than I was. Also, as soon as someone takes 13 credit hours, the pell grant isn't enough to pay the full cost of tuition there.

Not saying I disbelieve you - just surprised that he's able to cover 100% of his tuition with a Pell Grant alone. Also, something to keep in mind - depending on his major, a 12 credit hour semester may not be possible the entire way through. I was a science major - most of our classes are 5 credit hour courses due to extended lab time and given that some classes are available only in the Spring or Fall Semesters (and some on it even or odd years) - in order to graduate in less than 10 years, we pretty much had to take 15+ credit hours each semester. Which meant that for science majors, a Pell Grant wasn't going to cover 100% of tuition.

Anyway - best of luck to your son!

My son's Pell Grant has paid 100% of his tuition so far.

Yeah, that sentence kind of stuck out to me, too. But I let it slide because college was more years ago than I'm willing to admit here, so I thought things might have changed. My Pell Grants were very helpful but they were a fraction of my college costs. Now, I went to a private college but shopped around and my private college cost about what an out-of-state state school would have cost at the time. Since my main goal was to get the Hell out of the state I was living in at the time, the public vs. private thing was a wash. But I had multiple student jobs, a scholarship and loans for days. So, again, Pell Grants are not a magic pill. They're more like a vitamin supplement.

So, again, Pell Grants are not a magic pill. They're more like a vitamin supplement.

Exactly.

Beau: tertiary education doesn't just mean what we think of as college, i.e., a four year degree. Any trade school program counts. In fact many advanced countries don't even have an equivalent of our "bachelor of arts degree". Medical students go straight into med school from secondary school, for instance. You are comparing apples to oranges.

But I let it slide because college was more years ago than I'm willing to admit here, so I thought things might have changed. My Pell Grants were very helpful but they were a fraction of my college costs.

My son is attending a community college while living at home for his first two years. He also works part time but is saving his money. This is something everybody should do if money is an issue. Although even community college tuition is relatively high here in Pennsylvania, the Pell grants not only pay for 100% of his tuition, but most of the cost of his books. This is "free" in my book. (It's not like I'd be renting out his room if he weren't here. I wouldn't be downsizing to a smaller house, either, since I own my house free and clear.) Plus, he's around to babysit his highschool age brother when my husband and I want to get away by ourselves, something that us "old farts" can really use once in awhile.

Seriuously, what do you really GAIN from going away to college as a freshman or sophmore? Two more years of running around drunk? For this they should go into debt? Really? Also, you actually get a BETTER education in your first year at community college, at least when compared to a state university. That's because most freshman classes at the latter are taught in huge lecture halls so there's no individual attention.

How many credit hours is your son taking? The reason I ask, is when I was in undergrad (I graduated in 2009), I went to a University that had the least expensive tuition in my state (and amongst the least expensive in the country), I qualified for a maximum Pell Grant my first year (after that I was on 100% academic scholarships), and it was about $3000/year LESS than necessary to cover my tuition.

He's full time, which I think you have to be in order to qualify at all. Summer, see above post. Going to a university for the first year of college is just a foolish waste of money. I also did the community college-transfer route, and guess what? My college diploma from the university looks exactly the same as it would look had I gone there all four years. I just saved thousands of dollars.

Now, I went to a private college but shopped around and my private college cost about what an out-of-state state school would have cost at the time. Since my main goal was to get the Hell out of the state I was living in at the time, the public vs. private thing was a wash.

Hey, if you were THAT desperate to leave the state, you should have joined the army!

I don't know about you, but my main goal in going to college was to get a college education. This wasn't something I was ever allowed to take for granted. Neither of my parents had gone to college. I didn't care if the college was in my back yard or on Mars.

There is certainly no "right" to an education at a private university, or even an out-of-state public one.

Seriuously, what do you really GAIN from going away to college as a freshman or sophmore? Two more years of running around drunk? For this they should go into debt? Really?

Learning to live on one's own, manage one's own life, for one. I never drank my first two years of college, so your stereotype is a FAIL.

Not to mention making great friends and being surrounded by the university all the time. I grew up incredibly those first two years, more than if I had stayed home and gone to community college.

JonesGirl, while those may be laudable goals, there is no particular reason the taxpayer should be expected to pay for them. You can grow up wherever you are unless you have the sort of parents who insist on infantalizing you. Contrary to what you may think, I was never that sort of helicopter mom. That's one of my reasons for living in the inner city so my kids could have the opportunity to be around all kinds of people, to walk or take the bus to wherever they wanted to go instead of being driven, etc. I do live a few blocks from several MAJOR (as in huge and world famous) universities so I can see for myself how the average college kid behaves. My son comes and goes as he pleases. I just ask to be informed if he is staying out all night so I can lock up appropriately. I don't expect him to be perfect--he has friends who have been in trouble with the law, one of whom is currently on house arrest, for instance--and I don't interfere except to recommend "common sense" which I know he may choose to ignore. (Actually I feel privileged that he confides in me to this extent.) But at least he isn't constantly tempted to drink underage and stay drunk 3 nights of the week as most of my young neighbors do. You cannot deny this is a huge temptation for many in this age group. I don't know how old you are, of course, but isn't it possible that things have gotten worse in some ways since you and I were 19?

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that lower income people CAN get a college education if they choose. It wasn't a question of everything being absolutely ideal for them.

BTW, you aren't really "on your own" until you are paying your own way.

He's full time, which I think you have to be in order to qualify at all. Summer, see above post. Going to a university for the first year of college is just a foolish waste of money. I also did the community college-transfer route, and guess what? My college diploma from the university looks exactly the same as it would look had I gone there all four years. I just saved thousands of dollars.

I looked it up you don't need to be full time to get a Pell grant, but if you aren't full time, you won't get the full amount of a Pell grant. The government's website about the Pell grant doesn't really specify how much you'll get as a part time student because there are other factors that go into play.

Where I went to undergrad, the nearest "community college" was an hour drive one way; but there was a University in town. Also, compared to where I went for undergrad, community college wasn't really any less expensive per credit hour, especially when you consider the additional drive time, gas, upkeep on the car, etc., etc.

Like I said - good luck to your son. I certainly wasn't trying to be rude, just surprised that the Pell Grant would cover 100% of his tuition. Like I said, I went to a university with one of the cheapest per credit hour tuition rates (though they have an excellent reputation in sciences), and it wasn't enough to pay for my tuition. But, whatever, each person's expenses are slightly different based on what they are doing and what resources or schools are available to them.

Seriuously, what do you really GAIN from going away to college as a freshman or sophmore? Two more years of running around drunk? For this they should go into debt? Really?

I never experienced this in undergrad. But, unlike some people, I didn't go to undergrad right out of high school. I got married, had my children, got divorced, and started undergrad 10 years after graduating high school. For me, undergrad wasn't a running a round drunk time - it was a time of getting my education and working my ass off to get into medical school.

Well, of course it is different if you are an adult student. I've been a student my whole life--I now continue to audit classes for almost free under the "over 50 program" at the local U--and obviously I don't live like a 20 year old anymore either. Hey, I doubt I'd be particularly welcome at their parties when I'm usually the one banging on their door telling them to shut up at 3 am already!

My son doesn't own a car, BTW, and neither do I. We take the bus everywhere. I chose an urban life for many reasons, but one biggie is that it is really cheaper if you don't absolutely NEED a car to get around. (Housing prices are also a bit lower than the close in 'burbs, but then real estate taxes are higher so it might be a wash.) Granted, I sometimes forget that many people don't live in the middle of big cities, but a lot of lower income people DO, and there are plenty of opportunities for them.

Good for you for managing to fulfill your dreams in spite of so many difficulties!

Oh, yes, it's totally different as an adult student - and not in a bad way, imo :) I don't feel like I missed out on anything by delaying going to college. Sure, it would've been easier to do it without kids, but oh well. I think I appreciated it better than some of the traditional students I went to classes with, I had a better understanding of my goals, etc.

LOL about banging on their door at 3 am. I've never had to do that, but I wouldn't be above doing it if I had to :)

I lived in a smallish city in undergrad. I had to have a car because the public transportation was pretty much non-existent) - but, once I got divorced, I've never owned a car that I've had a car payment on, but I've lucked out in that I've had cars that run really well and had basically no upkeep other than the normal stuff (oil changes, brake pads when needed, etc.).

Aren't you in Pittsburgh (I think that's where you said you were before, but maybe I'm wrong)? If you are, I'm not terribly far from you (I'm in Erie). Where I live now, we have a cheap rent, but a nice place and I live in a nicer part of town. My kids go to the better school district in the area. Unfortunately, the public transportation up here is only marginally better than it was where I lived before. Given that my youngest son is considered a "special needs child" (he has a couple different medical conditions), and we are running to and from doctor's appointments, various other appointments for him, three different schools (including my own), etc., etc. - a car is pretty necessary for us. But, again, I'm lucky in that I have a car without a car payment - but it runs very good.

Also - thanks for the "good for you", it's really appreciated.

Here is some of the stuff the highly intelligent OWS people came up with:

Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.

Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.

Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.

Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.

Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.

Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.

Create a single-payer, universal health care system.

Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.

Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.

Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.

Allow workers to elect their supervisors.

Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.

Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.

Ban the private ownership of land.

Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.

Reduce the age of majority to 16.

Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.

Release all political prisoners immediately.

Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Abolish the debt limit.

Ban private gun ownership.

Strengthen the separation of church and state.

Immediate debt forgiveness for all.

End the 'War on Drugs'.

Wrong again, Steve.

That was posted by ONE person on the OWS forum. I wondered if someone would bite on that.

Hook, line, and sinker.

LOL about banging on their door at 3 am. I've never had to do that, but I wouldn't be above doing it if I had to :)

Only on Thursday nights when my kids have to get up the next day. (Or when they are doing something ridiculous and dangerous like setting off firecrackers which scares my animals.) For some weird reason most colleges no longer have Friday classes so party weekend lasts three days. Yet another way to prepare them for adult life, LOL. Wow, I remember an organic chemistry lab that was on Friday nights! Kind of fun, actually, since we were the only ones around and the prof relaxed a lot of the rules.

Yes, I did move to Pittsburgh, almost on the Pitt campus, and think it's the smartest thing I ever did because if you are even somewhat handy, you can buy houses for unbelievably low prices here. You can even become a real estate investor of sorts if you want. Some lucky people make their living this way. I don't know much about Erie, but it must be nice recreation-wise to live near the lake.

Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.

Wow, as do the hippies who invented homeschooling in the first place.

Uhh, Jonathon.

What makes you obtuse enough to arrogantly think that I am not already in Texas making much more than your ''minimum wage''?

That would be Austin, to be more precise........

Never mind the fact that even a ''minimum wage''job beats none at all eh Jon?

CBS NEWS Nov. 13,2011: ''American Approval of Obama Handling Of Economy Falls To Record Low''.....

www.cbsnews.com

American Latina:

Exactly.. Its the average citizen looking out for one another. Not a field of elderly white faces holding signs of Obama as Hitler while dangling tea bags across their foreheads. These are the real Americans, with the best interests of everyone on their minds. Nobodys asking for a handout, just a fair chance at the American dream.

ok, I just read that, and I really don't think you want me to repeat what I first read that as, lest you might think I am a creepy dirty old man (you know like the one in Family Guy) hahahahaha.

Gave me a really good inward chuckle (I can't really laugh at the moment).

yea we are all going to dancing around a camp fire. I disagree with 99% stuff. I think it has been sabotaged. Why and how?

Why is obvious. WHy is there no explanation on how and why each of the demands have come about? If this is the 99%. Why can not anyone publicly comment on these specific demands.

These 99% stuff is really rubbish. If you can have a newsvine like OWS discussion so you can thrash out the rational for each demand, Then others can read why each demand was made.

Do i believe in free education for adults? Yes and No. I think that student loans should be part of the solution and also be made by government to be at inflation and not profit driven bank. I can bring forth data and explain why? Its nice and rosey for everyone to get free training. Why should my taxes go to training I think will not give someone a job.

I only want student loans to people who can get a job and pay it back. Why? Its same deal with the housing and mortgages. Why should I pay your mortgage. That is insane.

I think the 99% website and such websites where there is no public comment and no discussions and explainations why these demands are sensible. Then they are not our demands. They are just someones wishes.

you can't have government loans that are 'unlimited' without also regulating the tuition. Otherwise you get the abuses that are being experienced.

The strange thing is that the schools that have the highest tuition, the private academic Universities (Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, etc...) are really not the problem because if you are accepted, and you do not have the family income to pay for your education, there are disbursements so that the school will arrange to pay for your education. It is the for profit schools that are the problem.

for-profit schools? How do you categorize them?

ITT, deVry, University of Pheonix, are examples of for profit schools (there are hundreds more). A few apparently have actually been convicted of student loan fraud.

Yes, these for-profit schools are rampant across the country. I actually feel sorry for students like mine who are attending a brick and mortar institution. They have a better education and yet they must compete for jobs with these degree mill students.

Not at my company hahahaha

Many companies are becoming aware of the lack of rigor and academic honesty of these places. As such, many companies simply put the for-profit graduate between HS graduate and college graduate in their ranking for employees. I also feel sorry for those who are taken by these degree mills.

The worst part is that they make no difference between their online program and their campus program either. It is, you got X degree at X institution.

This is just to say that when people are talking about the 'student loan problems', it is more or less related to these for profit schools.

Well, Phoenix, ITT, and Kaplan aren't any better in person than online. Many of our brick and mortar institutions are including online classes as options to the classroom; however, I doubt that it will ever be the whole degree earned online.

There are some classes that are fine online, but not the entire educational experience.

Fortunately all of our recent opportunities not only require a university degree, but a post grad, so we haven't had to deal with that crap.

When we move forward with our plans though, it will be a different matter, and that scares me.

If you need assistance determining the quality of certain degrees or institutions, feel free to email me here. I would be more than willing to provide my expertise to assist you.

oh it will be a bit of time. (I can't email anymore as I killed my older id and so am back in the greenhouse).

The manufacturing side of things, we go on experience, and then train ourselves on the CNC equipment. There really isn't an institution that graduates people qualified to work on this equipment.

As for schools, the other side that we have been hiring for, we have some connections with IIT for interns and also for new grads, and for the experienced, again, at least right now, they need a masters or a doctorate but we also require experience as well. We look at that experience with much more focus than the specifics of the degree.

Why should a retired person or a homemaker feel obligated to "get a job" when there aren't enough jobs to go around as it is? (For that matter, if you are young college grad who prefers to sponge of the 'rents rather than getting a job, that's also between you and the old folks.)

OomYaaqub your question about retired persons in #4.1 is an interesting one. The answer lies primarily in what constitutes a human beings mental workings.

We are not a sedentary animal. We have brains that need stimulation in one form or another. Sitting on our behinds "collecting rents" is counterproductive to our nature. That is why so many retirees find another outlet for that energy.

Whether it is buying property to fix and rent, or starting their own business from a former hobby or going back to school to look in another direction for a goal. Human beings were not created to sit and veg. We are not happy when doing so. Those who do that tend to use their time in negative ways. Mind still working, but producing nothing positive.

So retired, in the sense you indicated, is not normal for us.

Sure, but we can be retired and still active mentally. I don't stop thinking just becuase I don't get paid.

For the record, 84 people have been arrested, in Denver, alone who advocate for the Occupiers. I wonder how many nation wide?

That is not good when you want people outside your organization to rally on your behalf.

#4.3 You are correct. But what fun is there in sitting on a chair thinking?

So retired, in the sense you indicated, is not normal for us.

Personally I think it's selfish to take a job when you don't actually need one, and when they are in short supply. To start a business is fine, but not everybody's talents lie in that direction. You can also volunteer. You can babysit your grandkids so they don't have to be in those warehouses known as "day care centers." There are all sorts of things to do with your time that don't necessarily involve being on somebody's payroll. For crying out loud, it's not a crime to be a retired person!

Golly, #4.5 too many to count older folks can't afford to sit on their heinies. Sure some can baby sit and some can go to school. I grant you that it might be selfish, I say might be, but I don't believe that. Jobs are stimulating and we have many jobs available.

However, some of them are not glamorous. Some are downright dirty and hard working. I mean picking fruit or vegetables in the fields. Cleaning floors as a janitor or maid. Doing odd jobs for others in your community. Lots of things come to mind, not as physical but just as fulfilling.

And I never, ever intimated that being retired was criminal. I said that human beings, especially Americans, I think; prefer to stay busy and working and making money while doing it is nice. It is very nice if your pension or S.S. is not enough to pay your bills. Know what I mean??

Jobs are stimulating and we have many jobs available.

Oh, silly me. I thought umemployment was a huge problem and even a political issue.

Oom #4.7 since we have done little to remove illegals, who currently have the jobs to which I was referring, I would suggest that something be done nationwide regards that issue and get Americans to stop thinking they are above good, hard, physical labor. And that would include new college grads who think they should begin as presidents of a company instead of in the mail room learning their craft. That is another effect of liberal education, by the way.

We have lots of Americans who would jump at good honest work regardless of level in the hierarchy, if given the chance. This would apply to construction grunt work also. These things I know of first hand so don't minimize my words. I speak from experience, my friend.

And so do I. It is different everywhere, of course. Not everybody who is 80 can do construction work, you know.

Too true, Oom, but as long as you see my point, I see yours. Maybe we have room to move, conversationally.

In other words, they are a bunch of people protesting nothing in particular. Pathetic.

Oom, the TEA party was just as diverse and all over the place when they started. Were they pathetic, too?

Any "movement" that can't codify what it actually wants in a reasonable length of time is pathetic. At least when I publically protest something (generally a war), I KNOW what I want--we should end the war or we shouldn't invade in the first place.

Any "movement" that can't codify what it actually wants in a reasonable length of time is pathetic

Occupy is what, 2 months old? Just starting. I just think back to the early TEA rallies with signs about anything and everything.

Any "movement" that can't codify what it actually wants in a reasonable length of time is pathetic

Oh, please.

The Koch brothers initiated and funded the tea party, and handed them their talking points from the beginning.

OWS is what a real grassroots movement looks like.

Absolutely right, Beau. The right is so caught up in pinning them down so ANYTHING else is immediately off the table and they can begin the systematic development of BS arguments against the "demands."

The same is true about criticisms regarding a lack of leadership. They want targets.

Occupy is what, 2 months old? Just starting. I just think back to the early TEA rallies with signs about anything and everything.

I think I attended my first protest, against the Vietnam War, when I was 14. Even then I knew exactly why I was there, and so did everybody else. My reasons might have been selfish, such as having a draft age brother, but at least I knew we should get the hell out of Vietnam. We also knew enough to make our point and then go HOME. Why camp out in the park in late autumn like a homeless person when you have no idea WHY?

Camping out makes a statement. You're here talking about them, aren't you?

There are myriad issues people are concerned with and again, unlike the TEA silliness, Occupiers aren't handed a list of talking points from a well funded, slick, American Crossroads type group.

Camping out makes a statement

I'd like to know WHAT, unless it's a statement that you're too dumb to come in out of the rain. It used to be I felt morally obligated to help the homeless. Now, except for the ones in my own neighborhood whom I know personally, I can't even tell who is genuinely homeless vs. who is an OWS person.

Apparently, if you don't have bumber stickers, you're not a real movement.

OWS is giving voice to the anger of the "99%" of Americans who have been victims of the top 1% who have bought the politicians, control the political process and changed the laws and tax regulations to favor them and transfer wealth from the middle class to the top 1% over the past 25+ years. Does OWS have answers? No, and it's not their job to have the answers, but to protest and give voice. And they finally have people talking about these issues, talking about jobs, talking about the institutionalization of inequality by the rich and corporate interests. That is a start.

How absurd to assume you expect to be "a real movement."

I'll buy that. Even the liberals in Portland and Denver are finally fed up. Dispatching the constabulary, they are running the OWS out on a rail, tired of the chronic drug peddling and abuse [ hard stuff like heroin, and crank. Not pot], assaults, [and in the case of Ft.Collins in Colorado], a ten million dollar arson fire lit by an OWS protester now cooling his heels on a 250 grand bond. Meanwhie, the conservative RED STATE blog has fun at the OWS expense by tossing a YOUTUBE video up of ''OWS Bumfighting'', which has homeless, which the OWS allegedly claim to support, arguing with OWS protesters, while other OWS, tired of the ranting, coming over and start clocking the daylights out of the homeless on-camera [ unfortunately for the ''peaceful'' OWS].

Thus the Tea Party protests begin to look like Gandhis march to the sea in comparison to the Fight Club breaking out among the OWS denizens. The sight of Oakland OWS protesters placing their dough into a bank that they had attacked only a few days earlier lends an even more surreal aspect to their proceedings.

www.redstate.com ''OWS Branches Out Into Bumfighting '' [ video]

and the usual, and newer, OWS anti-Semitism videos here.

www.zombietime.com

Yes Orly, we all understand how messy an actual grassroots affair can be (as compared to the Corporate Sponsored "tea party" gatherings I mean).

Yes OWS is dirty and scumbagy. Oh well, get use to people in poverty. Its not over yet, there is going to be alot more foreclosures and alot more people living in card boxes.

I expect there to be shanty towns and more trailer parks and people living in the dumps. I think that the OWS is probably going to make it worse.

I seriously do not believe that the constant changing of Presidents has been a good change. Who wants a job that will only be around for 8 years? It takes at least 4 years to train in to a degree. It takes another couple to get to a full pay in that career you choose.

*Ops. I meant to say that I think that OWS is not going to make it any worse. They do what they can do. I disagree with a lot of the ideas. I think the ideas are not well thought out if that is what they think will solve the problem.

I think the ideas are sabotaged by individuals. If alot of people put in ideas and thrash then out. You can get the best ideas. That is why democracies work better and Facism and communism did not. The best ideas did not come up.

I seriously do not believe that the constant changing of Presidents has been a good change. Who wants a job that will only be around for 8 years? It takes at least 4 years to train in to a degree. It takes another couple to get to a full pay in that career you choose.

great, let's replace our government with a dictator who will stay in power until he is nearly dead like Castro. /sarc

They may well represent the 30%.

I'd like to see some evidence even before I even believe that.

It's closer anyway.

QUINNIPACS latest poll has support of OWS at only 30%. This number [ CNNS 36% as of last week] may be reflecting the beginnings of American understanding regarding the movements PR problems with rapes, assaults, theft, arson, and other crimes which the Lamestreams have mightily fought to keep clear of the national radar, with most instances confining themselves to local coverage. Liberals, whose math is lousy at each and every event [ i.e. comparing eight years of Bush to two years and ten months of Obama regarding such things as debt, deficits, and spending], suffer the same problem when comparing OWS vs. TP, forgetting that the OWS is nearly three years younger than the TP and at its early stages similarly mounted approval ratings between the winter/ spring of 2009 [ start] and the winter of 2010 at numbers between 35 and 40%. Thus, no differant than where OWS is now, with slight corrections based upon polling demographics. If GALLUPS October poll is any indicator, OWS fortunes are starting already to decline.

www.pollster.com Nov.13,2011.

Question Orly -- what's the "tea party" polling at these days?

Rapes. Oh My. What about Herman Cain? You ask for a raise or discuss a job and he has the job in his crotch.

Ok what about Newt, He left his wife with cancer. That is the kind of president id vote for. STFU president. :)

Hey baggers, I know that wouldnt be very much money, but wouldnt practicing youre ideology be priceless?

I think you are confused. Their ideology is for other people. They, of course, are due high wages, comfort and ease while demanding others sacrifice.

Eric, you want yard work done; call one of the illegals that the government refuses to send home.

The baggers are mostly hard working either retired or small business owners who are frustrated by regulations and taxes which make it hard to hire anyone, even you.

They are as American as you are and they should be respected as such. Snide remarks do nothing to prove your point.

Jones Girl???

Are you calling my potential workforce HYPOCRITES?

call one of the illegals that the government refuses to send home.

You mean one of the illegals corporations and small businesses across the country refuse to stop hiring?

I'm self employed and worked well below minimum wage my first few years starting the business. I currently work 70 hrs a week trying to keep sales up to keep everyone employed.

or you could hire sales people to do that.

I agree with the right wingers. I am pretty sure most of the OWS are hippies and drug addicts and generally scumbags. The OWS are a feral bunch and we need that else if you have not got the guts to sleep out in the rough. They would not be there.

We need someone to stand up for the rest of us. We are only here for a short time and then we die. I had to state the obvious. There have been alot of unsavory events in the OWS. Though its very entertaining. What about the GOP?

I do think that Genital Herpman Cain is almost as entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1jHaOaVqqE

Again its right wingers again with the B.S about one person is a stall bulk-ward against the destruction of business. Sure small business people work hard, alot fail. Its not to create jobs for the country, that's just B.S

Its just B.S. No one is indispensable. If you do not start a business and take advantage of a market not satisfied, there will be someone else.

The father of the nuclear bomb, Edward Teller, He said that if he did not help build it, someone else would. Better the USA then another. Search it. Though his work is important.

That's quite a feat, since ACORN no longer exists.

I'd like to see a pole that shows how many activist groups in the tea party side are funded by the Koch brothers.

oops I mean Community Organizations International my bad. Why did they have to go and change their name. ACORN was a catchy name.

They didn't change their name, the organization disbanded.

Come on Jonathan, this group will always be there in one form or another. Maybe they have learned their lesson not to push the envelope on voter fraud, but they can still be very effective at organizing protesters, even if they have to pay them to hold the signs.

yeah whatever...

get your paycheck from Koch yet?

Depends on how much Koch he ------.

either way, I have far more concern about what the Koch brothers are doing to this country (two people) than what ACORN and any community groups that came from it after it disbanded (many thousands upon thousands of people). Two people should not in any way whatsoever have that much influence on the country.

At least someone like Buffet keeps a very low profile and just goes about his business.

You mean at least Buffet does a better job of hiding his influence. Wealth equals influence and that will never change. If we don't like what someone is doing with that influence that is our choice, but it is their choice to use that influence according to their views.

naw, buffet really doesn't project his influence through direct interjection. He has enough respect through his business acumen that he doesn't have to. He does his annual company statement and if asked will advise, but he doesn't go out of his way to push himself into situations. He just runs his business.

One point I would like to note. While Acorn was, in fact, disbanded in disgrace; the members did not dissolve. They simply regrouped into other organizations, less noticable perhaps but just as fraudulantly functioning.

It is up to us to keep trying to find those people and distrust whatever they initiate.

ess noticable perhaps but just as fraudulantly functioning.

ACORN was cleared. Quit lying!

Acorn was cleared of nothing. Several members were up on charges and convicted. Why else would they have left the building?

Judi

and the Koch brothers are still up to their tricks in usurping democracy and the foundation of this country. Go take a look at ALEC and tell the world without a straight face that it is good for the country.

Jonathan, what is before the eyes of the people cannot be seen if the eyes are shut tight. Wouldn't you agree?

ACORN, all they did was change the name.

ACORN successor groups

ACORN the national organizational is now defunct. The group has split into regional organizations under different names shown below.

• Community Organizations International
• Texans Together Education Fund
• Health Care for America NOW!
• Alliance of Californians for Community Empowerment
• Voting Is Power
• Peace and Social Justice Center of South Central Kansas
• Communities Voting Together
• Pennsylvania Communities Organizing for Change
• Affordable Housing Centers of America, Inc.
• New England United For justice
• A Community Voice
• Communities United
• Minnesota Neighborhood's Organizing For Change
• Missourians Organizing For Reform and Empowerment
• New York Communities For Change
• Working Families Party
• Pennsylvania Neighborhoods For Social Justice
• Texas Organizing Project
• Organization United For Reform (Our) Washington
• American Institute For Social Justice

At #8.11 --

One point I would like to note. While Acorn was, in fact, disbanded in disgrace; the members did not dissolve. They simply regrouped into other organizations, less noticable perhaps but just as fraudulantly functioning.

It is up to us to keep trying to find those people and distrust whatever they initiate.

You like when all the embarrassed Republicans signed up for the Corporate Sponsored "tea party" meetings?

Because I agree...we MUST keep track of all of those people (lucky for us, they aren't too hard to spot)

great work steve.

Yep....another lie from the right. Who would have thought, big money and politicians lying to us.

G
DOWN with the GO-p/TP

If you can read, the meaning is right there.

I did read it. But felt it had nothing to do with what I wrote, that is why I asked you what I did.

When you characterize the Occupy folks as "dirty" and such, you sound like you are repeating the FOX "News" line about them.

#2.11 I was there for a bit. I want government to recind that stupid law that gives business the right to make laws.

Which law would that be, Judi?

Jones girl, Maybe it is true.

It was the recognition of large business, multinationals to be recognized as citizens, as I explained earlier. It gave them the right to lobby for their pet causes and for extra benefits that you and I can't get because we don't have the money.

10.3 JonesGirl, if they were there as I was, then perhaps the people were dirty. I know they smelled. Not all of them, but many. It was not pleasant to be around. And as I said, there was no sense of direction, no leadership. No real purpose except to disrupt everyone else trying to get to and from work. And the dog, Shelby; who was made leader of the group was the very real nice one.

, then perhaps the people were dirty. I know they smelled. Not all of them, but many. It was not pleasant to be around.

Camping outside causes that to happen.

And as I said, there was no sense of direction, no leadership. No real purpose except to disrupt everyone else trying to get to and from work.

Yeah, they should have had Dick Armey hand them their talking points, like the TEA folk--and been bussed in daily with lunch provided and screech at Town Halls so no one else can be heard.

It was the recognition of large business, multinationals to be recognized as citizens, as I explained earlier. It gave them the right to lobby for their pet causes and for extra benefits that you and I can't get because we don't have the money.

They've been considered "persons" for 100 years. And there is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to lobby. Maybe we should pay more attention to looking for candidates who aren't beholden to any lobbyists.

Maybe we should pay more attention to looking for candidates who aren't beholden to any lobbyists

--begin sarcasm--

Especially now that the "job creators" are handing money to Democrats!

--end sarcasm--

In other words, candidates getting private money was A-OK when Republicans got the most...but now that the aforementioned "job creators" are dumping the radical right-wing on their asses, it's "we've got to get rid of lobbyists!"

Sorry, as they might say in a court of law "You opened that door, now they can walk through it."

psychodd1:

The U.S. had a 90% top marginal tax rate under Eisenhower, when its GDP grew faster than at any other time in history.

And again, from NationMaster:

9% of U.S. families are headed by a single parent.
3% of Swedish families are headed by a single parent.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_lon_par_fam-people-lone-parent-families

You realize that anyone who wants to can edit Wikipedia, right?

the tax rates aren't comparable anyways. 57% taxation in the US wouldn't work, because the government doesn't give as much back, and the 90% under Eisenhower isn't valid either because there were FAR more tax shelters available. Without a detailed comparison of the services provided by government and the details of the tax code, there is just no point even trying to compare them.

1 - If the information is from Wikipedia, could you post the link?

2 -

They also have the highest rate of single parent homes possibly due to the fact that because their every need is met there is no incentive to be married. 

It's equally as possible that you are wrong in your bias assumption. Without facts to support your conjecture, that statement is meaningless.

3 - You are comparing apples and oranges.

I am bias because of .......what exactly ? 14.3

http://www.neoperspectives.com/swedishwelfare.htm

Yeah I realize that beau but that doesn't mean that it isn't correct. It is backed up here http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108008.html

My point isn't to disparage what is now working in sweden but lets be clear that even though it has extensive welfare benefits and generally is in a fairly stable state this was brought on by a more right leaning government that started the transition from a socialist type government to a more conservative one.

#15 No I was just passing on Info from a link I read. I make a good living and do not need anothers income to supplement mine although there are many that do that very thing...or just shack up. As far as me being Married.... yes very married ....I like it and her.My wife goes to college ......not sure what she wants to do but it keeps her occupied =D

It is backed up here

I don't see the information about a 57% tax rate in Sweden or about Sweden having the highest rate of single-parent homes in the InfoPlease link.

Regardless, Sweden has been doing very well with its (more) socialist economic system, particularly before the world economic crash of 2008 (which certainly wasn't caused by any socialist policies in Sweden).

There are many differences between Sweden and the U.S., however, so it's hard to extrapolate what effect their policies would have if implemented in the U.S. But I think we'd be well-advised to give them serious consideration and analysis, rather than simplistically discarding them as so many on the right do.

the wiki page at: 'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world' indicates that Sweden's individual tax rates range from 28.89%-59% with a payroll tax of 31.42%. It doesn't state it specifically for Sweden but it does indicate at the top that the payroll tax rate usually reduces the taxable income so the payroll tax may drop an individual into a lower tax bracket.

Or is it that people should get married for economic stability, not emotional fullfillment?

The stability of your children is a very important reason to marry, actually. I didn't marry until I was pregnant and probably wouldn't have otherwise. I really can't think of a better reason to marry. You can find emotional fulfillment as well as economic independence outside of marriage, but throughout human history, marriage has always been about more practical things that your "emotional fulfillment." Why do you suppose arranged marriages were the norm until fairly recently, and still are even among educated people in countries like India? That is also why virtually EVERY culture in the history of the world until VERY recently believed it was totally unacceptable for a woman to have a child out of wedlock. There is a ton of data proving that the children of married parents do better in every measurable respect.

Wolf believes that the founders of the OWS are socialist organizers who have large amounts of money invested in the destruction of America. This is just one of their many foruums. He traced this financially and spent much time putting together the information so you, Mr. Sanders can read it and decide for yourself.

No one has anything against blue collar politicalization. In fact, that is the reason Wolf and others like him take the time to try and educate the general public on what is going on. But when those people take to the streets with no clear idea of accomplishing anything they become a "mob" with unclear intentions. That is clearly counterproductive. Then they become pawns in a larger game which few of them try to discover.

Isn't it time for those people to go home, form a serious local forum and get serious about one or another of the many issues and tackle it, head one? Wouldn't that serve a more important value than milling around, aimlessly accomplishing little except the disruption of the rest of the blue collar workers who continue to work and make a living?

How about a super committee of average Americans to sit in judgement of lawmakers who exempt themselves from laws involving insider trading. How about working to rescind those exceptions? How about forcing those same lawmakers to add felony charges for those who work in the public sector, supposedly for the benefit of all America, while lining their pockets?

Would that not affect the performance of those lawmakers? Would that not also curtail the influence some multinationals, and national corporations have in making law? If you tell me I am wrong, I would have to call you liar, so be careful how you offer rebuttal

Why don't you do a little research about the cost of education "back in the day" when you "paid for it yourself", and what it is today? (You know, when you walked to college in three feet of snow, barefoot, uphill, both ways...)

Try looking up the cost of education in comparison to the rate of inflation on everything else. I think you'll be shocked.

You forgot "Get off my lawn!"

Of course this specific generation was born with laptops, gaming consoles, cell phones just given to them in most cases, they never had to earn any of this. Perhaps if they had to earn these goodies and realized that most of the world doesn't get these items at child birth like a majority of Americans

I wonder if the generations before yours looked down at yours for being born with indoor plumbing and electricity.

Every generation has better technology than the one before.

Quit repeating what FOX "News" screeches.

JonesGirl, the plain fact is that life used to be far simpler for most people, and you don't need Fox News to know that. (I don't get Fox News since I can't afford cable.) I was born in the 1950s and can remember when most families only had one car. If Mom wanted to shop that day, she drove Dad to work and picked him up. Most men did a lot of maintenance work on their own cars and houses to save money. Houses were TINY by today's standards. People had even less before that. I live in a house built in the 1880s which originally had NO closets. That's because everybody owned just a few changes of clothes which would fit easily into a free-standing armoire or even a hook on the bedroom wall.

Well, Oom, it's not 1880 or 1980 anymore and your comment really has nothing to do with mine.

If you want simpler times, go live with the Amish.

And if you want fancier times, go live with the Rockefellers. Your point? My point is only that most people have what they believe they "need" and it is always a choice. Most people who are screaming poverty are whiners because you don't NEED a big house in the suburbs, two or three cars, etc. I live well without those things. I have most of what I need from Freecycle or the side of the road on garbage night, which only proves my point about what a wealthy country we are since I've living proof that most college kids throw out more than I even bother to purchase,.

And BTW your comment was completley about whining about what your generation cannot afford.

Most people don't have a big house or three cars. Your characterizations are off the mark completely.

BTW, I live in the city in a STUDIO apartment and love it. So no, I am not whining.

hmmm looks up 'the city' on google. hmmm it doesn't exist.

damn it. hahahaha

what is the 99% about if not what we supposedly cannot afford since we are a bunch of victims? We actually live far better than our parents did but refuse to admit ii.

Oom

It is really about one thing and one thing only, changing the national dialog. Basically saying that business as usual is not acceptable anymore. Any specifics that are listed are just people venting their personal talking points.

what is the 99% about

Why don't you stop with that and find out instead of voicing erroneous assumptions or talking points that FOX ladles out?

The Nazi card?

Seriously?

Wow.

That was quick.

See ya!

Thanks for stopping by.

Maybe your next go 'round will be longer. Pick a cool new name so we recognize you!

I understand the preference of the German People in wanting to get rid of democracy and replacing it with a dictatorship. Look at our own government in its inability to get things done! I think if Obama was a dictator, things might work out better, but I'm not sure. I certainly wouldn't want a George Bush as dictator! Therefore a dictatorship is a crap shoot and somewhere down the line a country inevitably gets brought to ruin by it. I think the closest this country ever came to a dictator was under George Bush and we dodged the bullet on that. I want to keep democracy here in this country, but I would like this country to find a better major party to replace the Republicans. The Republicans should become a minor third party to represent the 1% and big business. I would like to see the 99%ers form themselves into a major political party.

Bush turned out to be not as bad as Hitler. Hitler was responsible for getting millions of people killed. If you add up the number of people that are dead now because of Bush, it is much less, probably less than a million. We came really close to dictatorship under Bush what with the Patriot Act which we still have and need to get rid of. Dictatorship is a terrible nasty thing, even though it can work out for a while. Before Hitler, the Germans had a rather decent dictator by the name of Bismark. They were encouraged by him, to go with a dictatorship when Hitler came along. Obama could be our Bismark if we want to make him a dictator, but I say no. Just like the Germans wound up with a Hitler we could end up with another Bush or even worse next time!

Josh Meyer and Julian E. Barnes write in the Los Angeles Times that one Bush administration lawyer told them the memos are "just the tip of the iceberg" in terms of what was authorized.

Law professor Jack Balkin blogs about "reasoning which sought, in secret, to justify a theory of Presidential dictatorship...

"This theory of presidential power argues, in essence, that when the President acts in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief, he may make his own rules and cannot be bound by Congressional laws to the contrary. This is a theory of presidential dictatorship.

"These views are outrageous and inconsistent with basic principles of the Constitution as well as with two centuries of legal precedents. Yet they were the basic assumptions of key players in the Bush Administration in the days following 9/11."

Scott Horton blogs for Harper's: "We may not have realized it at the time, but in the period from late 2001-January 19, 2009, this country was a dictatorship. The constitutional rights we learned about in high school civics were suspended. That was thanks to secret memos crafted deep inside the Justice Department that effectively trashed the Constitution. What we know now is likely the least of it."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/white-house-watch/bush-rollback/bushs-secret-dictatorship.html

Retired people drawing social security and pensions have been paying taxes since the Reagan administration, Mommareenie.

er um, retired people have been paying taxes for a lot longer than that.

true. You are right. Reagan merely expanded it.

oom, you really ought to look at the tax rates before Reagan took office and the tax rates after he left office. Once you do that, you may want to rethink that statement.

All good points. Our elderly paid higher taxes than what is being paid now by corporations and wall street. There were a lot fewer deductions and loop holes. Most did extremely well until their home values dropped and pensions were stolen. They paid their fair share and most served this nation in one way or another. They were our greatest generation. I am hoping for any success - especially for the OWS protesters. I do not want to see the middle class become a lost or distant memory.

genevieveva

Well Reagan reduced the tax rates (reducing revenue) but also removed a lot of tax shelters (increasing revenue). The changes should have been revenue neutral.

As for me, I look forward to the day where I can call Fritz Lang's Metropolis home. I welcome our slave owner overlords /sarc.

oom, you really ought to look at the tax rates before Reagan took office and the tax rates after he left office. Once you do that, you may want to rethink that statement.

I was referring specifically the negarive tax rates for the very low income folks, which Reagan and subsequently presidents increased. These allowed genuine choice, including (gasp) the choice of a parent to stay home with her kids, if that's what she wants.

congress does that, not the president, unless you think that the president actually passes legislation.

Parents were also able to stay home with kids because jobs paid more, adjusted for inflation.

Jonathan, Please look up the what Reagan did while in office. I do not expect you to take my word for it even though I lived through those times. He increased taxes 10 or more times during his term. I can not remember. He hurt the middle class, Unions, airlines, etc., and this information was silenced. Created a largest income gap between the classes compared to prior Presidents. He was not considered one of our best presidents even by our military especially during his first term and almost caused a war that would of destroyed mankind. He even said he regretted the increased income equality. I hope I am not doing anything wrong in posting this newsvine line.

http://illuminate.newsvine.com/_news/2011/11/09/8711639-ronald-reagan-worst-president-ever

genevieveva

Reagan may have suggested that the rates be raised, but congress ultimately was the part of the government that passes the laws to raise the taxes.

That is why the house and senate are called the LEGISLATIVE branch of government.

Yes, the house and senate are called the legislative branch but Reagan asked for the taxes to be increased 12 times and he got what he wanted every time. Thank you for accepting the facts.

The taxes were higher under Reagan, Clinton, etc than they are now and we can not even get the do-nothing congress to do anything. The states keep increasing their taxes but they refuse to let the federal government pay our bills. They sure have their hand held out when they want that money. I wish they would put that money were it is needed. The federal does so much more for the people and the nation than the states. I wish people knew the difference. I trust the federal government more than any state.

Parents were also able to stay home with kids because jobs paid more, adjusted for inflation.

Wrong. We were very poor when my mom stayed home with me and my brother. Men supported families because they were MEN. The last time I ever saw my mil, she smiled that my bil had forced his wife (the mom of two little kids) to get a job. I wanted to slap her face.

I started paying taxes in 1958. Eisenhower was president and gas was about 15 cents a gallon. Of course, government kept prices low as they did for farm subsidies. Now it is big oil that gets the pass and too large multi farms.

Boy! Things surely do change.

alot of elderly are not Tea Party or Republicans

Of course not. We're nostalgic baby boomers who go to protest rallies that aren't especially "about" anything in particular, just for the fun of it.

Just what is the "Working Class Party" and who is going to be their candidate?